Discussion on the FSM- keep it clean/respectful

just another post i would like to make, not pertinent really to whats going on i guess but here it is.

The concept of the numinous, the supernatural and an entitiy of such nature, is one that has always intrigued me but there is a distinct difference when i say that the possibiliy of such a being exists and that i KNOW that one exists. One is drenched in ignorance and arrogance the other is far more humble...by humble i mean follow this logic:

The speed of light as we know it ( no its not going to change STO I SEE YOU TYPING)  is measured at around 186, 000 miles per second,thats around 7 earths a second, ( by that i mean going around the world 7 times at the equator), at that rate it would take 8 minutes to get to the sun from earth,. then factor in that our star is one of 100's of billions in our galaxy, which is one galaxy out of a further 100's of billions more galaxies and then the vast distance of empty space between these galaxies dwarves the galaxies in question to the same degree that the earth is dwarved when compared to the sun, if not more so. The human mind cant fathom the vastness of whats out there, the nature of the phenomena that exists, and i think if you want to be in awe of something, just look up, truly look up and you will realise that we are insignificant, we are nothing in the grand scheme of things and to think that with all this out htere, all this wonder, that we are of any meaning to a being that made all this is beyond arrogant, beyond deluded. Now if there are other such races out there in the stars, it may have given god or whatever people wish to call him more credence if he explained to us some of the things we know today or the possibility or even confirmation of other such worlds under his guidance. god is the manifestation of humanities biggest weakness: fear of death, the unknown, and witht his fear twisted, perverted, sexually repressed, ignorant and illiterate men have controlled the fate of billions.

again i didnt read through this but i think the message should be clear enough- we are insignificant and the greatest journey for our species is the pursuit of knowledge, to find out how all this works, none of which is contingent on the existence of the FSM, a flying teapot, zeus, thor, odin, Anubis or the abrahmic god.

2k

I hope i am not turning into Sir Spamalot, lol.  If i am then tell me to stay away for a while.  Ravens2k the only thing that bothers me about your last 2 posts is presuming that you know what happened to me when i had my experience.  I highly doubt you would even understand it if it happened to you, sadly.  Not sure using words like retarded is too good of an idea, but hey, my wife calls me a dork several times a day  

I've only got a moment on here today, but after reading last nights posts I have a couple of things to say ...

First:  Ironman, ... are you looking for a neighbor !  Actually, it would be better yet if you came to Maine ... house next door is for sale... very reasonable !! Great place to live and raise the family ... I'd just like knowing you and yours are the guys I live next to !

second: R2, I know we're never going to completely agree on this topic, but that does not and has never meant I cannot appreciate your point of view and, in this point of context, ( your last 2 post) the way you write and how and what you say, what you need to say, is completely consistent and irrevocably has R2 all over it.  Truly , after all this time and talk, we have found more common ground than not and with the exception of our "Creator" positions, I find your logic and forward thinking regarding our universe and our place in it strikingly similar.

The human mind cant fathom the vastness of whats out there, the nature of the phenomena that exists, and i think if you want to be in awe of something, just look up, truly look up and you will realise that we are insignificant, we are nothing in the grand scheme of things

The concept of the numinous, the supernatural and an entitiy of such nature, is one that has always intrigued me but there is a distinct difference when i say that the possibiliy of such a being exists and that i KNOW that one exists.  and I believe the difference here is as thin a veil as could be imagined, separated only by one experience, directing us in one way or the other, that separates the two philosophies.

We are made of stardust my friend, and some day we'll (all of us... universally) will have the answers we seek. 


MoS

I'll start with MoS because...well...I don't know why...

Hey Mano, you need to go back to my original post.  I was talking scholars, only to the extent of I can show people of scholarly repute as you have used to  demonstrate some of your points.  That was it ... that was the point ...only that there are people in the world who dispute non believers position with  lifetimes of study and serious thought and could back it up with their postulations.

Yes, you can find some.  However, they are, themselves, believers and are vastly in the minority within the academic community.  Does that mean that I think they are fabricating their evidence to satisfy their faith?  Perhaps not, but we do tend to see what we want to see, sometimes.  The fact that the VAST majority of scholars and scientist lean far away from the Abrahamic god tells me what I need to know.  THAT was my point.  If you look for them, MoS, you can find intelligent scholars who go against just about every widely accepted scientific fact, but that doesn't mean those extreme minorities have valid arguments.  Just because they are well educated doesn't mean they are right.

Yes, and I apologize for my lack of detail here.  Reread like this :

Okay, I think I'm catching on...

And these points of contact between Christianity and other religions are damaging to Christianity's truth claims only if actual borrowings can be proven ( which is why the core details are so important, not the base story that can be easily immitated on the surface but never repeated at it's core )..

But don't you see that this isn't correct?  The core details are NOT what is important when dealing just with the concept of doubt, MoS.  I don't care that Jesus was nailed to his cross by Roman soldiers while Krishna was tied to his tree by a hunter.  The core of these stories are certainly very different, but when you understand that the men writing the story of Jesus would have been knowingly competing with other religions of the day, you can see, absolutely, why they might embelish some of his accomplishments to make them bigger, and better than his predecessors.  The "My God is stronger than your God" effect.

 So, sorry it was all about an innate inner experience in creation all can relate to , if honest and realizing this universe we live in could not have been accomplished by us, on our own.  A Creator is required for all this !!

I don't question whether or not there was a creator, MoS.  I may be arrogant, but not so arrogant as to think I know how it all started.  How the universe came into existence, in the very beginning, is WAY beyond my pay grade!

I am surprised you could come back with anything as innane, as temporal thinking as believing in a deity that sends his "son" to earth to perform miracles, die and rise back into heaven is an innate instinct of our race and that, therefore, it is only appropriate that many religions have similar stories throughout our history ... and considering that as innate in all.  Good grief ... I know this is in sarcastic defense of your postion by making my response look unintelligent, but it doesn't work, even without today's explanation.

I apologize, this response was intended to illicit a laugh, not make you feel like I was belittling your intellect.

Ok here goes:

My dad passed away in December of 2006 after being terminally ill for a while.  My mom called me up on a Monday and said dad was in the hospital and made it sound like he would be going home soon.  As soon as we saw him we knew he was on his deathbed.  We went up to see him again Tuesday but i just couldnt go on Wednesday (emotionally) so i went to work.  On the way home from work i started praying and instead of the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth mixed in with with the cursing and other nonsense i just started to give thanks and praises to God for giving us our dad and allowing him to be in our lives for as long as he was.  I also prayed that even though i would like You, God, to heal him i accept Your will and give you thanks and praises.

After a few minutes of praying like that i was overcome by an overwhelming feeling of peace that i had never experienced before.  I told my wife and she said it was 'the peace that passes all understanding'.  I had never even heard of that before.  So now when rough times come up i pray and ask for guidance and do as the British used to say, "dread not".

Hope that helps folks to understand me a little bit better.

Thanks for sharing such a personal story, Shadow.  Sorry for your loss.

I've heard similar stories before and, while I won't presume to understand your exact experience, I think I can safely say that I am familiar with this concept.  Human emotions are an intricate thing and the fact that you felt an inner peace after praying to your God is wonderful, but doesn't mean anything other than your mind found a way to comfort itself, in my opinion.

To try and make a comparable, but opposite (if that makes any sense), comparison...one day about 10 years ago or so I was driving home and heard a song on the radio.  It was a song that talked about the loss of a friend and I found myself thinking about a close friend of mine who I hadn't seen for some time but who was certainly alive and well.  However, my mind wandered to the thought of how it would feel to lose this friend and within seconds I was sobbing to the point that I had to pull over and calm myself (bring on the "Mano's a crybaby!" jokes).

This had never happened to me before and has never happened to me since.  My mind, for whatever reason, focused on something that I wasn't expecting and elicited an emotional response that wasn't exactly rational at that particular moment.  I can't explain it, it just happened.

I am happy that you found peace in your time of need.  However, I fail to see a correlation between your prayers and that peace.  I truly believe that if you would have been praying to Vishnu at that moment, you would have had a similar experience and then you'd be here talking about the authenticity of Hinduism.  Your mind took you to that place of peace because you are capable of amazing things and you just don't need an omnipotent third party to accomplish them.

All of the above is just my opinion, of course!

What happens to muslims and Jews; they have the same God as Christians. I have a hard time believing muslims have my God. I think islam is false religion.

I'm surprised 2k didn't address this one.  I don't know how much you have studied the Islamic faith, but trust me, it is VERY similar to your own!  While they can certainly get a bad rap here in the western world because of the false idea that the extremists are the norm, their faith is very similar to that of Christianity.

Muslims actually believe that Jesus was a great prophet and they respect his teachings greatly.  The Qu'ran even calls Jesus "The Word of God" and "The Messiah" several times.  While these terms have different meanings within the Islamic faith, there is no denying that they hold him, and his teachings, in high regard.
If you ever take the time to understand the Islamic faith from a doctrinal standpoint, you will see just how similar your faith is, Shadow.

As for the jews, the apostles were to spread the good news of Jesus to them first and gentiles secondly. Matthew 10:14 says that if a house or city was deemed unworthy the apostles were to shake the dust off their feet and move on. Matthew 10:15 says that it will be more tolerable for the lands of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgement than for that city. Sounds to me like if you reject the good news, bad things will happen.

But why?

If a man came to you tomorrow and told you of a new Messiah who had performed all of these miracles and who had written down his teachings in a brand new book and that if we didn't follow his new doctrines that we would all go to a place of infinite damnation, would you convert?

I would hope not.

Yet, this is exactly what you are expecting of all non-Christians.  They have been taught, or come to the conclusion on their own, something very different from what you believe.  The concept of believing your faith is completely foreign to them and they only have YOUR (and other men) word that it is true. 

Without the actual word of God, provided by God himself, which he has yet been unwilling to give us, why should anybody be expected by that god to follow the teachings of Jesus over any of the other faiths, or non-faiths?

And don't give me the whole, "The Bible is the Word of God..." garbage because it just isn't to anyone who is not Christian!!  Its just another piece of scripture written by men, just like the Qu'ran, the Book of Mormon, the Sanskrit scriptures of Hinduism, and Dianetics!

If God is going to make following Jesus an absolute pre-requisite for attaining eternal bliss, then he better damn well come down here and tell EVERYONE on the planet as much.  That's all I'm saying...

I will read the other responses in turn when i have some free time, i did miss this thread and felt that mano needed to have a redcoat stand by his side once more. I will say that when i say something is retarded shadows- i understand the implications of such words but i really dont mean you are retarded, its something in my world view that i find so obscenely replulsing or unimaginable that i use very abrupt and somewhat harsh language- i am far less tolerant and nice than my canadian counterpart but i do enjoy learning more about the world at its denizens and if i can free a few minds while im at it- great.

Oh and i dont really presume to much, i could go further in to my thought process but i didnt want to clog up the post. i know many many people, infact several who partake in this very thread who have had very similiar moments of...shall we say...clarity? lucidity?epiphany? all such events that mano and i may simply say was coincidence or personal reflection, our world view would not require anything to be out there helping, whether that be god or joe peschi.

oh and my grammar sucks, so sometimes you have to fill in the blanks through context.

2k

The speed of light as we know it ( no its not going to change STO I SEE YOU TYPING)  is measured at around 186, 000 miles per second,thats around 7 earths a second, ( by that i mean going around the world 7 times at the equator), at that rate it would take 8 minutes to get to the sun from earth,. then factor in that our star is one of 100's of billions in our galaxy, which is one galaxy out of a further 100's of billions more galaxies and then the vast distance of empty space between these galaxies dwarves the galaxies in question to the same degree that the earth is dwarved when compared to the sun, if not more so. The human mind cant fathom the vastness of whats out there, the nature of the phenomena that exists, and i think if you want to be in awe of something, just look up, truly look up and you will realise that we are insignificant, we are nothing in the grand scheme of things and to think that with all this out htere, all this wonder, that we are of any meaning to a being that made all this is beyond arrogant, beyond deluded. Now if there are other such races out there in the stars, it may have given god or whatever people wish to call him more credence if he explained to us some of the things we know today or the possibility or even confirmation of other such worlds under his guidance. god is the manifestation of humanities biggest weakness: fear of death, the unknown, and witht his fear twisted, perverted, sexually repressed, ignorant and illiterate men have controlled the fate of billions.

Allow me to repunctuate and correct the grammar and spelling mistakes so that this isn't so difficult to read!  This is an absolutely BEAUTIFULLY written paragraph that needs to be read by everyone participating here.  Try it like this:

The speed of light as we know it (no its not going to change STO I SEE YOU TYPING) is measured at around 186,000 miles per second, thats around 7 earths a second, (by that i mean going around the world 7 times at the equator), at that rate it would take 8 minutes to get to the sun from earth. 

Then factor in that our star is one of 100's of billions in our galaxy, which is one galaxy out of a further 100's of billions more galaxies and then the vast distance of empty space between these galaxies dwarves the galaxies in question to the same degree that the earth is dwarved when compared to the sun, if not more so.

The human mind cant fathom the vastness of whats out there, the nature of the phenomena that exists.  I think if you want to be in awe of something, just look up, truly look up and you will realise that we are insignificant.  We are nothing in the grand scheme of things and to think that with all this out there, all this wonder, that we are of any meaning to a being that made all this is beyond arrogant, beyond deluded.

Now if there are other such races out there in the stars, it may have given god, or whatever people wish to call him, more credence if he explained to us some of the things we know today or the possibility or even confirmation of other such worlds under his guidance. God is the manifestation of humanities biggest weakness: fear of death and the unknown.  With this fear twisted, perverted, sexually repressed, ignorant and illiterate men have controlled the fate of billions.

Hope you don't mind, 2k...but I wanted to make sure everybody read that paragraph and sometimes your run-on paragraphs are tough to get through!

I did think about answering the islam point made by shadow but then again in his world view the other thousands of religions out there are false, if you have any specific questions about islam by all means ask away and ill answer to the best of my ability.

How the universe came into existence, in the very beginning, is WAY beyond my pay grade!

This, science does not presume to know anything without sufficient and substantial proof, thats one of my massive pet peeves, religion asserts that it knows when it can not and does not know anything, infact every day we find that the bible or quran knows less and less.

I do not, or try not to say, that a god does not exist, i just think if you analyse your belief system and the institution of the religions you subscribe yourself to, you may find that it has many synthetic traits and ulterior motives, and the premise of an all powerful being careing what we do is so absurd to me that sometimes im lost in my own thought process when trying to address how rediculous that sounds when you attempt to grasp the nature of what is around us.

2k

Heh i dont mind at all mano, i wrote that at i think mid day today, after staying up all through the night...talking to you know who :p

2k

The concept of the numinous, the supernatural and an entitiy of such nature, is one that has always intrigued me but there is a distinct difference when i say that the possibiliy of such a being exists and that i KNOW that one exists. One is drenched in ignorance and arrogance the other is far more humble...by humble i mean follow this logic:

2k, would you characterize yourself as the most humble person you've ever known?

This line of reasoning doesn't make sense to me when you assert plainly (and Mano too) that while you don't say there is not any sort of god, you know that if there is it is certainly nothing like the Abrahamic God of the Bible.  Why so certain?  Why so arrogant?

Further, you live every day believing things that can't be proven.  You have faith that your family members love you - there is no way it can be proven empirically, you simply interpret things they do and say as being love.  Even when you do things that make them angry you still "know" you are loved.  The only difference is you can see and touch those loved ones physically, while believers see and touch God through faith. 

You may think I'm deluded, ignorant, foolish, or any number of derogatory things, but I know what I know and I've seen what I've seen. 

However, on the flip side:

 The human mind cant fathom the vastness of whats out there, the nature of the phenomena that exists, and i think if you want to be in awe of something, just look up, truly look up and you will realise that we are insignificant,
I agree completely, and the Bible clearly states this as well.  However, it goes on to say that despite how ridiculous we are as a species, we are special because God says so.  Despite our worth, not because of it.  Speaking strictly of Judaism and Christianity, we are called to be humble because of the things you mentioned and many others.

Now if there are other such races out there in the stars, it may have given god or whatever people wish to call him more credence if he explained to us some of the things we know today or the possibility or even confirmation of other such worlds under his guidance.

Arrogance?  Why do you deserve this kind of treatment?  Why do you think you are allowed to make the rules under which a powerful, Divine entity would operate?

PS:

Welcome back to the thread, 2k!

Thanks for responding ironman - I was composing a response when I accidentally hit the wrong mouse button and everything got wiped out...

I'll redo it later, but there are a couple of points I'm interested in more information about.  I'll get back to you!

OH LTS HOW I HAVE MISSED YOU. lets get to it shall we?

This line of reasoning doesn't make sense to me when you assert plainly (and Mano too) that while you don't say there is not any sort of god, you know that if there is it is certainly nothing like the Abrahamic God of the Bible.  Why so certain?  Why so arrogant?

Further, you live every day believing things that can't be proven.  You have faith that your family members love you - there is no way it can be proven empirically, you simply interpret things they do and say as being love.  Even when you do things that make them angry you still "know" you are loved.  The only difference is you can see and touch those loved ones physically, while believers see and touch God through faith. 

You may think I'm deluded, ignorant, foolish, or any number of derogatory things, but I know what I know and I've seen what I've seen. 

First of all im not humble in all aspects of my life but i am truly humbled when i realise how little i know about the universe and in general; the more i learn the less i realise i know.

Why so serious? sorry i had to. In all seriousness, your premise is not without merit but is somehwat misguided in that it is not arrogant to analyse the nature of this world, and what we would deem to be morale and logical and then imagine or extrapolate such traits on to an absolute being, and im reasonably sure i didnt state with absolute certainty that your god did not exist, simply that it seems improbable, if i did assert that then i mispoke.

as for the second paragraph, you pretty much answered yourself. Love can be expressed in a physical, observable way, i dont have to have faith as you see it that my sister loves me. faith is the abscence of evidence, i have plenty (evidence)that shows my sister loves me, that she is there for me physically when i need her, or is there to comfort me, or help me etc if god descended right now and did similar things, or i saw him do that to someone else, then sure, ill start hopping on that bandwagon- i would have loads of questions but that would go a long way to not requiring faith anymore and then just being solid evidence, but we cant have that can we? but i digress somewhat, What is it that you know? what is it that you have seen? have you seen god come down and shower you with kisses and praise? or did you simply feel a wind breeze when you looked up and hoped? here is the difference between us LTS, i dont think you are outright deluded or foolish i think you and many like you take comfort in things that really have no solid foundation but it works for you, our minds work differently, i need objective evidence, i need to know- as far as anyone can know something, that x y or z exists or works the way i think it does. Faith to me is a massive detriment to our growth in all aspects of our society. It fosters a terrible premise and perspective as i eluded to earlier, it is for lack of a better phrase- a crutch.

I agree completely, and the Bible clearly states this as well.  However, it goes on to say that despite how ridiculous we are as a species, we are special because God says so.  Despite our worth, not because of it.  Speaking strictly of Judaism and Christianity, we are called to be humble because of the things you mentioned and many others.

Well im glad you see the awe in the universe but again, ' because god told me so' is a very poor reason, who is god? what has he done to prove to you that he is who he says he is? its all taken on faith and again thats where i am baffled. you are special because god says you are? that doesnt work for me, i need to know why? a higher being saying its so would not make me think it, again this could simply be the difference in how our minds work, i am truly curious i need to know for myself why things work, someone telling me ' it is this way because it is' has never worked, i need evidence and proof, and for the life of me i cant figure out why that is not the case for you and many others.

 Also being humble does not remotely jive with your religion or many others for that matter. you assert to KNOW something you can not know, no one as far as i am aware can, but of they go in their millions, telling all of us that condoms are an afront to god and to die because of aids is the better choice, or that purgatory no longer exists, or that the past 98000 years before revelation didnt really matter, and those humans that did live- died without knowing, this is a ludicrous notion, its a sadistic one also.

Arrogance?  Why do you deserve this kind of treatment?  Why do you think you are allowed to make the rules under which a powerful, Divine entity would operate?

Because he is asking sentient beings to subjigate themselves,and he would know exactly what we require so why not just alleviate the issue right there and then and just tell us all plainly all the things we know today, proof stuff to us, he is asking us  to bend the knee and worship without evidence.

i mean what kind of moron says ' hey guys, im almighty and all that jazz, but here are a few books that contain my teachings, keep in mind, you wont see me, ill release my word at a time and place where most of you are illiterate and nearly all recordings of my word will be suspect due to a lack of ability to preserve the texts, ill also make sure to let you all know that things like slavery and misogony are ok in the grand scheme of things, also treat others how you wish to be treated- but kill these guys right there...and if you excesise the free will i have granted you and you turn your back on me because the evidence i gave you and KNOW TO BE SHODDY and that you wont believe , well then you can burn for all eternity because im a just god- you know, finite crimes= infinite punishment- that makes sense right? you wont question that notion one bit beccause i simply told you that thats the way it has to be, oh whats that? one second, i cant simply forgive you, let me sacrifice myself to myself for your sins, and if you dont believe in all this stuff, regardless of the life you led, hell fire will await you. sound fair? great, oh and ignore all these other faiths that will pop up, that have equally shoddy foundations, but how would you know? i mean its not like this book i sent down is going to hold up to the test of time, within centuries most of the notions in this text will be disregarded as impossibilities with no proof, and the morale teachings will look like the work of repressed illiterate men who come from stone age middle east- THIS SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA'..

that in a nut shell, and i could go on, is why i cant fathom why people believe in such gods, its not just you, its many faiths, its so rediculous that i dont even know which part to focus on. before one even proves that god exists, i think its almost more apt to answer the question ' is it worth woshipping such a collossal tyrant?' and for me the answer is a resounding no.

2k

This line of reasoning doesn't make sense to me when you assert plainly (and Mano too) that while you don't say there is not any sort of god, you know that if there is it is certainly nothing like the Abrahamic God of the Bible.  Why so certain?  Why so arrogant?

Like 2k, I don't know that I have ever stated unequivocally that the Abrahamic God is false, just that it seems highly unlikely and contrived by man.  Like 2k, I won't say that there is not a higher power within the universe if for no other reason than I can't reconcile how the universe came into existence.  Unfortunately, when I allow myself to think that way I invariably think about how ancient man was constantly attributing the things he didn't understand to a god just because he didn't understand them.  Its frustrating, because my mind knows that there is probably a logical, reasonable explanation for everything, but it seems to be an innate (just for you MoS!) quality in humanity that makes us want to attribute the unexplained to a supernatural source.

i mean what kind of moron says ' hey guys, im almighty and all that jazz, but here are a few books that contain my teachings, keep in mind, you wont see me, ill release my word at a time and place where most of you are illiterate and nearly all recordings of my word will be suspect due to a lack of ability to preserve the texts, ill also make sure to let you all know that things like slavery and misogony are ok in the grand scheme of things, also treat others how you wish to be treated- but kill these guys right there...and if you excesise the free will i have granted you and you turn your back on me because the evidence i gave you and KNOW TO BE SHODDY and that you wont believe , well then you can burn for all eternity because im a just god- you know, finite crimes= infinite punishment- that makes sense right? you wont question that notion one bit beccause i simply told you that thats the way it has to be, oh whats that? one second, i cant simply forgive you, let me sacrifice myself to myself for your sins, and if you dont believe in all this stuff, regardless of the life you led, hell fire will await you. sound fair? great, oh and ignore all these other faiths that will pop up, that have equally shoddy foundations, but how would you know? i mean its not like this book i sent down is going to hold up to the test of time, within centuries most of the notions in this text will be disregarded as impossibilities with no proof, and the morale teachings will look like the work of repressed illiterate men who come from stone age middle east- THIS SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA'..

This whole paragraph cracked me up!  Classic 2k!