Hey Mano, you need to go back to my original post. I was talking scholars, only to the extent of I can show people of scholarly repute as you have used to demonstrate some of your points. That was it ... that was the point ...only that there are people in the world who dispute non believers position with lifetimes of study and serious thought and could back it up with their postulations.Yes, you can find some. However, they are, themselves, believers and are vastly in the minority within the academic community. Does that mean that I think they are fabricating their evidence to satisfy their faith? Perhaps not, but we do tend to see what we want to see, sometimes. The fact that the VAST majority of scholars and scientist lean far away from the Abrahamic god tells me what I need to know. THAT was my point. If you look for them, MoS, you can find intelligent scholars who go against just about every widely accepted scientific fact, but that doesn't mean those extreme minorities have valid arguments. Just because they are well educated doesn't mean they are right.
Yes, and I apologize for my lack of detail here. Reread like this :Okay, I think I'm catching on...
And these points of contact between Christianity and other religions are damaging to Christianity's truth claims only if actual borrowings can be proven ( which is why the core details are so important, not the base story that can be easily immitated on the surface but never repeated at it's core )..But don't you see that this isn't correct? The core details are NOT what is important when dealing just with the concept of doubt, MoS. I don't care that Jesus was nailed to his cross by Roman soldiers while Krishna was tied to his tree by a hunter. The core of these stories are certainly very different, but when you understand that the men writing the story of Jesus would have been knowingly competing with other religions of the day, you can see, absolutely, why they might embelish some of his accomplishments to make them bigger, and better than his predecessors. The "My God is stronger than your God" effect.
So, sorry it was all about an innate inner experience in creation all can relate to , if honest and realizing this universe we live in could not have been accomplished by us, on our own. A Creator is required for all this !!I don't question whether or not there was a creator, MoS. I may be arrogant, but not so arrogant as to think I know how it all started. How the universe came into existence, in the very beginning, is WAY beyond my pay grade!
I am surprised you could come back with anything as innane, as temporal thinking as believing in a deity that sends his "son" to earth to perform miracles, die and rise back into heaven is an innate instinct of our race and that, therefore, it is only appropriate that many religions have similar stories throughout our history ... and considering that as innate in all. Good grief ... I know this is in sarcastic defense of your postion by making my response look unintelligent, but it doesn't work, even without today's explanation.I apologize, this response was intended to illicit a laugh, not make you feel like I was belittling your intellect.
Ok here goes:Thanks for sharing such a personal story, Shadow. Sorry for your loss.
My dad passed away in December of 2006 after being terminally ill for a while. My mom called me up on a Monday and said dad was in the hospital and made it sound like he would be going home soon. As soon as we saw him we knew he was on his deathbed. We went up to see him again Tuesday but i just couldnt go on Wednesday (emotionally) so i went to work. On the way home from work i started praying and instead of the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth mixed in with with the cursing and other nonsense i just started to give thanks and praises to God for giving us our dad and allowing him to be in our lives for as long as he was. I also prayed that even though i would like You, God, to heal him i accept Your will and give you thanks and praises.
After a few minutes of praying like that i was overcome by an overwhelming feeling of peace that i had never experienced before. I told my wife and she said it was 'the peace that passes all understanding'. I had never even heard of that before. So now when rough times come up i pray and ask for guidance and do as the British used to say, "dread not".
Hope that helps folks to understand me a little bit better.
What happens to muslims and Jews; they have the same God as Christians. I have a hard time believing muslims have my God. I think islam is false religion.I'm surprised 2k didn't address this one. I don't know how much you have studied the Islamic faith, but trust me, it is VERY similar to your own! While they can certainly get a bad rap here in the western world because of the false idea that the extremists are the norm, their faith is very similar to that of Christianity.
As for the jews, the apostles were to spread the good news of Jesus to them first and gentiles secondly. Matthew 10:14 says that if a house or city was deemed unworthy the apostles were to shake the dust off their feet and move on. Matthew 10:15 says that it will be more tolerable for the lands of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgement than for that city. Sounds to me like if you reject the good news, bad things will happen.But why?
The speed of light as we know it ( no its not going to change STO I SEE YOU TYPING) is measured at around 186, 000 miles per second,thats around 7 earths a second, ( by that i mean going around the world 7 times at the equator), at that rate it would take 8 minutes to get to the sun from earth,. then factor in that our star is one of 100's of billions in our galaxy, which is one galaxy out of a further 100's of billions more galaxies and then the vast distance of empty space between these galaxies dwarves the galaxies in question to the same degree that the earth is dwarved when compared to the sun, if not more so. The human mind cant fathom the vastness of whats out there, the nature of the phenomena that exists, and i think if you want to be in awe of something, just look up, truly look up and you will realise that we are insignificant, we are nothing in the grand scheme of things and to think that with all this out htere, all this wonder, that we are of any meaning to a being that made all this is beyond arrogant, beyond deluded. Now if there are other such races out there in the stars, it may have given god or whatever people wish to call him more credence if he explained to us some of the things we know today or the possibility or even confirmation of other such worlds under his guidance. god is the manifestation of humanities biggest weakness: fear of death, the unknown, and witht his fear twisted, perverted, sexually repressed, ignorant and illiterate men have controlled the fate of billions.Allow me to repunctuate and correct the grammar and spelling mistakes so that this isn't so difficult to read! This is an absolutely BEAUTIFULLY written paragraph that needs to be read by everyone participating here. Try it like this:
The speed of light as we know it (no its not going to change STO I SEE YOU TYPING) is measured at around 186,000 miles per second, thats around 7 earths a second, (by that i mean going around the world 7 times at the equator), at that rate it would take 8 minutes to get to the sun from earth.Hope you don't mind, 2k...but I wanted to make sure everybody read that paragraph and sometimes your run-on paragraphs are tough to get through!
Then factor in that our star is one of 100's of billions in our galaxy, which is one galaxy out of a further 100's of billions more galaxies and then the vast distance of empty space between these galaxies dwarves the galaxies in question to the same degree that the earth is dwarved when compared to the sun, if not more so.
The human mind cant fathom the vastness of whats out there, the nature of the phenomena that exists. I think if you want to be in awe of something, just look up, truly look up and you will realise that we are insignificant. We are nothing in the grand scheme of things and to think that with all this out there, all this wonder, that we are of any meaning to a being that made all this is beyond arrogant, beyond deluded.
Now if there are other such races out there in the stars, it may have given god, or whatever people wish to call him, more credence if he explained to us some of the things we know today or the possibility or even confirmation of other such worlds under his guidance. God is the manifestation of humanities biggest weakness: fear of death and the unknown. With this fear twisted, perverted, sexually repressed, ignorant and illiterate men have controlled the fate of billions.
How the universe came into existence, in the very beginning, is WAY beyond my pay grade!This, science does not presume to know anything without sufficient and substantial proof, thats one of my massive pet peeves, religion asserts that it knows when it can not and does not know anything, infact every day we find that the bible or quran knows less and less.
This line of reasoning doesn't make sense to me when you assert plainly (and Mano too) that while you don't say there is not any sort of god, you know that if there is it is certainly nothing like the Abrahamic God of the Bible. Why so certain? Why so arrogant?First of all im not humble in all aspects of my life but i am truly humbled when i realise how little i know about the universe and in general; the more i learn the less i realise i know.
Further, you live every day believing things that can't be proven. You have faith that your family members love you - there is no way it can be proven empirically, you simply interpret things they do and say as being love. Even when you do things that make them angry you still "know" you are loved. The only difference is you can see and touch those loved ones physically, while believers see and touch God through faith.
You may think I'm deluded, ignorant, foolish, or any number of derogatory things, but I know what I know and I've seen what I've seen.
I agree completely, and the Bible clearly states this as well. However, it goes on to say that despite how ridiculous we are as a species, we are special because God says so. Despite our worth, not because of it. Speaking strictly of Judaism and Christianity, we are called to be humble because of the things you mentioned and many others.Well im glad you see the awe in the universe but again, ' because god told me so' is a very poor reason, who is god? what has he done to prove to you that he is who he says he is? its all taken on faith and again thats where i am baffled. you are special because god says you are? that doesnt work for me, i need to know why? a higher being saying its so would not make me think it, again this could simply be the difference in how our minds work, i am truly curious i need to know for myself why things work, someone telling me ' it is this way because it is' has never worked, i need evidence and proof, and for the life of me i cant figure out why that is not the case for you and many others.
Arrogance? Why do you deserve this kind of treatment? Why do you think you are allowed to make the rules under which a powerful, Divine entity would operate?Because he is asking sentient beings to subjigate themselves,and he would know exactly what we require so why not just alleviate the issue right there and then and just tell us all plainly all the things we know today, proof stuff to us, he is asking us to bend the knee and worship without evidence.
This line of reasoning doesn't make sense to me when you assert plainly (and Mano too) that while you don't say there is not any sort of god, you know that if there is it is certainly nothing like the Abrahamic God of the Bible. Why so certain? Why so arrogant?Like 2k, I don't know that I have ever stated unequivocally that the Abrahamic God is false, just that it seems highly unlikely and contrived by man. Like 2k, I won't say that there is not a higher power within the universe if for no other reason than I can't reconcile how the universe came into existence. Unfortunately, when I allow myself to think that way I invariably think about how ancient man was constantly attributing the things he didn't understand to a god just because he didn't understand them. Its frustrating, because my mind knows that there is probably a logical, reasonable explanation for everything, but it seems to be an innate (just for you MoS!) quality in humanity that makes us want to attribute the unexplained to a supernatural source.
This whole paragraph cracked me up! Classic 2k!
i mean what kind of moron says ' hey guys, im almighty and all that jazz, but here are a few books that contain my teachings, keep in mind, you wont see me, ill release my word at a time and place where most of you are illiterate and nearly all recordings of my word will be suspect due to a lack of ability to preserve the texts, ill also make sure to let you all know that things like slavery and misogony are ok in the grand scheme of things, also treat others how you wish to be treated- but kill these guys right there...and if you excesise the free will i have granted you and you turn your back on me because the evidence i gave you and KNOW TO BE SHODDY and that you wont believe , well then you can burn for all eternity because im a just god- you know, finite crimes= infinite punishment- that makes sense right? you wont question that notion one bit beccause i simply told you that thats the way it has to be, oh whats that? one second, i cant simply forgive you, let me sacrifice myself to myself for your sins, and if you dont believe in all this stuff, regardless of the life you led, hell fire will await you. sound fair? great, oh and ignore all these other faiths that will pop up, that have equally shoddy foundations, but how would you know? i mean its not like this book i sent down is going to hold up to the test of time, within centuries most of the notions in this text will be disregarded as impossibilities with no proof, and the morale teachings will look like the work of repressed illiterate men who come from stone age middle east- THIS SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA'..