Posted on: September 30, 2011 7:02 pm
Edited on: September 30, 2011 7:46 pm
Posted by Ben Golliver.
CBSSports.com's Ken Berger reports from New York City that labor talks between the NBA and the National Basketball Players Association have wrapped up after more than four hours of negotiations.
Both sides addressed the media, with the NBPA going first.
Berger reports that NBPA president Derek Fisher said during a Friday afternoon press conference that although the meetings were "engaging" the two sides "did not come out of here with a deal today, but we will be back here at 10 a.m."
Talks are expected to continue on Saturday and Sunday.
Asked if a deal will be reached this weekend, Fisher said: "I can't answer that."
The Philadelphia Inquirer reported that Fisher said that "no formal proposals [were] exchanged" on Friday and that talks were "contentious" at times. The paper also noted that Fisher said that the NBA did not threaten to cancel the entire 2011-2012 NBA season if no deal was reached this weekend.
NBA commissioner David Stern and deputy commissioner Adam Silver addressed the media following the NBPA press conference.
"There's no bad news," Stern said according to Berger. "Both sides expressed a willingness to make a deal."
Berger reports that Stern, who acknowledged that no formal proposals were exchanged, said that both the NBA and NBPA "agreed that once regular season games lost, both sides harden."
Asked if he can see a framework of a deal, Stern said, "We leave that to the bloggers." If no deal is reached this weekend, Silver said that talks between the two sides would "of course" continue.
NBA.com reported that Stern made public some details of the league's new revenue sharing plan for the first time. Under the proposal presented by Stern, revenue sharing among owners would quadruple within three yeras after tripling in the first two years.
Finally, Stern said that a report that the season could be canceled if a deal wasn't reached this weekend was "ludicrous."
During the NBPA's press conference, Fisher was flanked by a cadre of NBA All-Stars including Miami Heat forward LeBron James, Heat guard Dwyane Wade and New York Knicks forward Carmelo Anthony. Other players present, Berger reports, include Boston Celtics forward Paul Pierce, Philadelphia 76ers forwards Elton Brant and Andre Iguodala, and Cleveland Cavaliers guard Baron Davis.
Berger also reports that Heat forward Udonis Haslem left the meeting saying that he was "very encouraged" and that "you can see that everybody really wants to make a deal."
This post will update with the latest NBA lockout news.
Posted on: September 30, 2011 10:53 am
By Matt Moore
The NBA lockout has been filled with double-talk, as you'd expect. The league will say negative things, then leak that progress has been made. The union will make statements of promise towards a deal, then leak that a lot of agents and players think they are nowhere. Things go from being "blood issues" to "on the table" in the blink of an eye. And if I hear one more report about how this or that meeting is "key," I'm going to scream. But there's no getting around the unaninimity in reports surrounding Friday's negotiating session.
This is Judgment Day.
Either the union and league are going to find a way out of their issues, have a huge breakthrough, and stun everyone by announcing a handshake deal by the end of the weekend, with a process that starts Friday, or they're going to realize by the end of the day that they're simply too far apart to even be considering a resolution. The consequence of the latter could mean anything from a "go dark" end to negotiations for upwards of a month, canceling up to a month of the regular season at minimum, to the mutual assured destruction of the 2011-2012 NBA season.
The essentials of where we're at, and how we got here, according to various reports:
So this is it. It may not be Friday outright, it may be Saturday or even Sunday, but the next three days determine whether November 1st sees the opening tipoff of a league high on its popularity, enjoying a resurgence of relevance, of the Heat vying to redeem themselves, of the Mavericks making one last run, the Lakers trying to return to the top, the Celtics' last stand, the Bulls trying to fulfill destiny, or whether we're banished to months, and possibly a full year without professional basketball in the United States.
Close your eyes. Hold your breath. Just don't expect the best, or the worst. We're well past the point of expectations in the NBA lockout, and the courts haven't even gotten involved yet.
Posted on: September 29, 2011 1:54 pm
Edited on: September 29, 2011 1:55 pm
Posted by Royce Young
David Stern supposedly was in a very threatening, do-or-die type of mood after Wednesday's labor talks. Reportedly, he's laying the NBA season at the feet of the players telling them it's now or never. While the NBA refutes that, and indeed it does seem unlikely, the reality is there. Get a deal done now or the NBA regular season will be altered.
Which is why there's more of a sense of urgency now than there's ever been. Consider this quote from a team president talking to Yahoo! Sports:
"[Stern’s] going to make a real hard push to get a deal this weekend. If the union makes a slight move, David will move. But the players have to blink first.”
It's obvious that everyone understands what's at stake. Not just regular season games, but you're risking major momentum and therefore, major money by not getting a deal done. Fans aren't automatically going to just come sprinting back to a game where the players and owners are so greedy that they're willing to sacrafice games. Jeff Van Gundy made a great point to the Star-Ledger about that.
The NBA's playing with fire and Friday has been set up to be the day it either gets burned or the flame is put out. Clearly the owners and league have to save face with the negotiations. It's a little bit of a game of chicken, waiting for one side to blink. But the owners are the ones who started this lockout. And if they come out of it with little to nothing, they'll have some serious egg on their face. Owners don't like that.
If the players will bend a little more this weekend, that could start everyone down a path towards a deal. The owners don't WANT to lose a season. The players definitely don't want to. But they want to get something out of this new collective bargaining agreement and if both sides can come out of Friday kind of feeling like they are, maybe we'll have something.
Posted on: September 28, 2011 11:49 pm
Edited on: September 29, 2011 12:01 am
Posted by Ben Golliver.
On Wednesday, CBSSports.com's Ken Berger reported that NBA commissioner David Stern said that there were "enormous consequences at play" during the next few days of negotiations between the league and the National Basketball Players Association and wrote that, reading between the lines, the entire 2011-2012 season could be in jeopardy if progress isn't made in labor talks this weekend.
You didn't have to read too closely between the lines to catch the meaning from Stern and Silver, who sought to ratchet up the pressure on getting a deal or risk not simply an on-time start to the season, but indeed the whole thing. With training camps already postponed and a first batch of preseason games canceled, Stern said the two sides are "at a period of enormous opportunity and great risk."Also Wednesday, ESPN.com reported that Stern is "planning to threaten" the NBPA with the cancelation of the entire season if no real progress is made this weekend. Here's an excerpt from that report.
USA Today reported Wednesday evening that Tim Frank, a spokesperson for the NBA, said that the report that Stern has plans to threaten to cancel the entire season is "simply not true."
Meanwhile, SI.com reported on Wednesday that Stern "originally told the union that Jan. 7 was the date by which he would have to cancel the whole season."
We all have functioning brains here. The NBA is not going to rashly cancel its season on Monday, not with billions of dollars on the line and months to salvage a truncated season. Cancelation is a worst-case, do-anything-to-avoid-it decision that wouldn't randomly come in early October. Rather, this plan to threaten, if it exists, is meant to provoke the players into bringing a really good offer and a willingness to negotiate to the table. The players certainly get that. This threat, if it were to be made, would be a ploy, or posturing, or whatever else you want to call it. Everybody involved -- NBA, NBPA, media, fans -- understands that.
Ultimately, a denial of a specific plan to make this type of threat is meaningless. Stern already sent the same message, on the record to a cadre of reporters, with his comments on Wednesday. He clearly believes that it is time to start making progess on a deal. Conventional wisdom on Wednesday, prior to the late-night denial, concluded that Stern's statements were meant to imply something like: "Make a deal now because the league's offer will only get worse once time passes and regular season games have to be canceled."
That still sounds right even after the denial.
Posted on: September 28, 2011 8:38 pm
By Matt Moore
In the busiest month since the start of the lockout, we had our hands full with palace intrigue on both sides. The conversations about who was on which side inside the NBPA and the owners deepened, talks started, stopped, then re-started. Compromise came forward, and so did threats. It was a month that usually showed conflicting sides of the conflict. Progress was followed by downturns of pessimism, and dour notes were trailed by waves of feel-good compromise. At the end of the third month, we're closer to a deal than we were on July 1st, but you'd have to look really closely in order to see it. With that, here are the winners and losers for September.
No one looked stronger throughout the month than Fisher. Fisher fired off two letters to the NBPA which naturally got leaked to the media and reprinted. Both times Fisher held the line the players want. he kept the union strong and together, working to take some of the edge off the knives of agents contemplating involuntary decertification, and reinforced the position of union leadership to stand up for the players' so-called needs at whatever cost. Hunter is the magnet for criticism, from agents, the union, media, the works. Fisher is being set up to take the reins and at the same time looks like a strong leader in his own right. Fisher came out of September looking like the one who could hold the line and get things done.
The Lakers were proactive in releasing the fact that they support revenue sharing and a hard cap. Both of these things cost them money and wins, so why would they be winners? Because by getting ahead of the movement, they're setting themselves up to control the process. In doing so, they'll insure the changes are made in a way that minimizes the damage to themselves. It's a nice piece of politics from the most powerful franchise in the league. Times are changing, and instead of fighting progress, the Lakers are spearheading it to make it work for them to whatever degree they can. Shrewd, those Busses.
Commanding huge offers from Europe. Making strong statements at NBPA meetings. Leading the way for the veterans. Continuing his aura of being bigger than the game. Good month for Kobe as the overseas offers continue to climb.
It's pretty hard to hurt the reputation of agents since public perception of them is not great to begin with, but coming off as renegade coup leaders isn't a good look. The agents were rabble-rousing all month about the leadership of Hunter, even as things tredged towards a deal and Hunter et al showed no signs of budging on the "blood issue" of the hard cap or any of the other lines in the sand for the union. Meanwhile, no one's really signing those gigantic overseas deal besides former Nuggets, and the exhibition games are getting no traction nationally. Agents usually seem greedy, it comes with the business. But this month, those that were rabble rousing look sneaky.
Players' ability to earn outside the NBA
Deron Williams began games with Besiktas and no one noticed. The European team spots are drying up. The exhibition league in Vegas was a lot of fun, and absolutely no one attended. The exhibitions around the country are getting less and less attention. The players may be prepared to dig in and wait this thing out, but they won't be doing it while collecting nice fat paychecks to cover their missing ones from the league. The players may be what drives the league, but the league structure is what allows them to become stars. This month showed that they need the league as much as the league needs them.
First, they were outed in an ESPN post which outlined where each owner sits in terms of the hard cap and revenue sharing. Then it was leaked that Dan Gilber and Robert Sarver were scuttling progress in the talks. The owners got the players to come down to 53 percent from 57 which is great, but their hard-line insistence on sub-50 levels makes them seem out of touch and desperate. Meanwhile, the NBA continues to hold strong as it waits for the NRLB ruling, which the owners cleary don't want to mess with. Their constant pushing of the union instead of working on compromise has fostered the discontent with the union agents, which could result in decertification and antitrust lawsuits. Stern needs to get the house in order, because in September, it seemed all over the place. They'll cave on the hard cap, but they're still seeking wild changes. All over the map for the owners in September.
Posted on: September 28, 2011 2:34 pm
By Matt Moore
Ken Berger is at the CBA negotiations in New York. He is reporting on comments from both sides via Twitter:
Derek Fisher: Two sides agreed to meet again Friday, with full committees coming to NY.So there's some good and bad there. Kessler's statement obviously indicates that there's work to be done, but bringing in players and owners signals some movement. There has to be something for them to be talking about.
But the tone of the comments reads more as the two sides being at a breaking point. They're either headed towards a breakthrough that could lead to a handshake deal to save the regular season, or on the verge of shutting it down and beginning to cancel regular season games.
We're inside a minute and down two scores. Someone doesn't make a play soon, it's going to be time to turn out the lights.
Posted on: September 28, 2011 9:53 am
By Matt Moore
Ken Berger of CBSSports.com reports:
Owners have indicated a willingness to drop their insistence on a hard team salary cap in exchange for adjustments to the luxury tax system and key spending exceptions, two people with knowledge of the negotiations told CBSSports.com Tuesday night.via Sources: Owners drop insistence on hard cap - CBSSports.com.
We're starting to see a pattern with how these negotiations are going. The smaller groups meet together, and a lot of progress is made. Both sides come out with compromise, new ideas, and a move towards a deal. Then the two sides bring their respective constituencies in to talk about it and everything falls apart. In esseence, everything goes fine in the owners-players conversation until you involve the owners and the players. It's pretty much all downhill from there.
With talks expected to extend Wednesday before both sides break for the Jewish holiday Rosh Hashanah, that leaves both sides with several days to damage and deconstruct any and all progress made this week as the hard-liners break apart on the details. It's been known for a while that the only way a deal is done is if both sides can get the moderates behind the wheel and move the extremists back to the fringes. The question is which side will tear it down?
It was reported last week that Robert Sarver and Dan Gilbert were the two owners leading the charge against the progress made. Meanwhile, a contingent of the players' agents have been making it clear that while they may be behind the union's leadership as long as their priorities are in place, if they feel the deal isn't the best for their clients (and by extension, themselves), they'll pursue other options. The most likely candidate to bring things back to square one has to be the agents, since the players have given up more so far in the talks and the threat of decertification still dangles over the talks.
With the hard cap having become flexible from the owners' perspective and the BRI cut being a liquid issue for the players, there's a window open which could save the start of the season. But with both sides occupied by forces which have their own interests firmly prioritized over getting a deal done to give the fans, players, and owners a season, it's hard to see the sunshine brought out Tuesday night becoming daylight. It's a waiting game to see which side decides to screw this up first.
Posted on: September 27, 2011 10:26 am
Edited on: September 27, 2011 11:09 am
By Matt Moore
When Ken Berger of CBSSports.com reported Monday that the owners' latest proposal sought a 46 percent cut of BRI for the players averaged throughout the course of the deal, it was a sign of how far the two sides have to go, but not a doomsday prophecy. After all, that's a negotiation, right? One side high-balls, the other side low-balls, the two wind up somewhere in the middle. That the owners have come less way than the players is not a shock, they're the ones taking the more aggressive approach out of a demand from some of their representatives to solve what they consider huge problems. In short, they're driving a hard bargain.
Bascially, the owners moved up from 39 percent to 44 percent to 46 percent while the players went from 57 percent to 54.3 percent (or as low as 53 percent according to some reports) according to reports. While the owners have moved further percentage wise, anyone that thought the split was going to wind up with the players giving back 18 percentage points of their cut was out of their minds. But there's an interesting wrinkle built into the proposal that comes from NBA.com's David Aldridge. From Aldridge:
A source says last week's latest proposal from the owners to the players started at 50 percent of Basketball Related Income in year one of the (still) 10-year offer, and dropped into the mid-40s for most of the rest of the proposed deal. Is that better than the initial 61-39 owners' split offer back in February? Yes. But it is still not anywhere close enough to get a deal with the players. Hard to imagine this isn't exactly how the owners anticipated this would go, and that there won't be anything of substance to report until the first game checks to players go unprinted in mid-November.via Time has come for stars to speak up more at bargaining table | NBA.com.
On the surface, this isn't anything super important. But the league is sticking to the same tactic it took in its June proposal. The goal of the owners is thought to range from insuring profitability to simply covering losses garnered by what they consider a combination of a broken system and the economic downturn. But if the latter is the case, why is that even with a conservative estimate for growth, the league winds up taking a bigger chunk as the revenues increase. The deal structure removes the players from the growth model. It's an employer telling a group of employees, "it doesn't matter if or how much you grow our company, you'll still make the same." It's a pay-raise freeze. Nothing puts the owners' position that the players do not represent what makes the league grow more than this. From Berger on Monday:
In its simplest form, Fisher's argument is that Steve Nash and Carmelo Anthony -- not Robert Sarver and James Dolan -- have generated record revenues, TV ratings and fan engagement for the NBA. And yet Sarver and Dolan -- not to mention Dan Gilbert and Peter Holt, labor relations committee members all -- want that pendulum to swing to the owners' side with a series of proposals that seek to shift the lion's share of revenues to them. The league's latest proposal last week, according to two people with knowledge of it, called for an average of 46 percent of basketball-related income (BRI) going to the players, who were guaranteed 57 percent under the previous deal.via With owners split, NBPA aims to unite players, turn corner - NBA - CBSSports.com Basketball.
It's an odd approach. Instead of saying "we want to recoup our losses now, and when the economy likely recovers at least to some degree and you help grow the game, your share will improve," the league is instead saying they want their cake, the increased revenue provided by the star power of the players, and to eat it too, with a higher percentage of BRI.
The bottom line is found in-between the cracks in the story. Both sides are starting to compromise, with the owners offering up more than they had previously just as the players have. But the league is still reconfiguring their offer to gain an advantage for every concession they make. It's compromise, but only in terms of how they get what they want, not how much. So if you're starting to think the owners are moving towards a more reasonable approach, don't bet on it. Just as Derek Fisher is spitting fiery rhetoric which won't help matters, the owners aren't taking down arms, they're just moving them along the castle wall.